Impressive doesn’t even begin to define Marjorie’s career. But, her career path leading up to her current role as senior vice president of business and legal affairs for Skydance Sports, which has produced such hits as the movie “Air,” has been anything but linear. A passion for international law after joining the Air Force led to a discovery of the power of entertainment while she was in law school. She brought the skills she was learning in the military and her passion for social justice to the clinics she participated in at LLS and eventually her career as an entertainment lawyer. After my brief conversation with Marjorie I left not only feeling proud to soon be joining an alumni network that includes people as inspiring as Major Marjorie Williams (Ret.), but also appreciative of the reminder of the real-world application that my current LLS endeavors will have in my future legal career. 

DD: I know your legal career has centered around the entertainment industry and you’ve said that Loyola introduced you to the power of entertainment. What is it about that power that you find so intriguing? 

MW: Well, it’s interesting because I came from a background in the military where the entertainment industry was like the furthest thing from my mind, honestly. Being in LA and working in entertainment is like being in DC and working in the government. You throw a rock and someone does something in that capacity in this space. And, I realized just how much it translates across the world, right? I travel a ton and no matter where you go there’s some part of American culture or pop culture that really kind of drives, not only trends but also conversations. To take it a step further, for me, Loyola has social justice in its fabric. That’s at the core of some of the identifiable characteristics that Loyola eats, sleeps, and breathes. There’s a lot of power in entertainment in terms of the ability to highlight various causes as well. So I think that’s the biggest thing for me in terms of realizing how the power of entertainment can be utilized to further whatever cause you may support.

DD: They say with great power, like the power of entertainment, comes great responsibility. What do you feel is your responsibility as an attorney in entertainment or do you even feel like you have some sort of responsibility in that space?

MW: I think, for me, what I’m probably most focused on right now is the legacy. The industry as a whole has been one that has been really kind of unattainable in a lot of ways as far as access to it. And to me certainly in the legal field. So what I’ve been really passionate about is talking to people about what opportunities actually exist and then trying to help connect the dots. They have to do the work once they get in, show up for the interviews, and show up with their grades but so many people just never had access to the industry. So, by default, they’re unaware of the opportunities beyond what you typically see in front of the camera. There are a number of students around LA that know me because I try to be very intentional and welcoming and open to dialogue and conversations with whoever wants to talk to me. In particular from underrepresented demographics.

DD: I know you were also a Major in the Air Force. What skills did you learn in the Air Force that you think have best served you in your current role?

MW: I tell people, one, just being an Officer early on in your 20s, you’re taught about leadership and in particular leading teams. So much of what the industry is is a team and people have to come together to collaborate in order to execute. For me, just the ability to be a good team player, because a lot of people, particularly in this industry, act as if it’s only about them and want people to see how amazing they are. But it’s also being a leader even when you’re not in a leadership position. My first job I was the low man on the totem pole but at that point I was a Captain in the Air Force, I had a master’s degree in international relations and I had a law degree. If I didn’t know how to jump into this new sector it would have been highly problematic. I also think what’s really important for lawyers is not only our written communication but our verbal communication. The military taught me that early on because I was responsible for doing briefings in my role as an Intelligence Officer. A lot of my job was not only briefing pilots or people who were around my same rank but at times I was briefing Colonels and even Generals. I joined in 2000 and the world changed in 2001. A part of my career was supporting some of the efforts of the war, so, it really just hones in that as a lawyer it’s important to get to your point quickly while having the background information so you’re prepared when your audience has questions. The flip side is also listening. That’s such an important skill particularly for lawyers. It’s critical in particular in negotiating because I pay attention to what the other side’s real needs are. It helps me be more effective as a negotiator because if the other side feels heard it becomes a less antagonistic negotiation. The firm I’m at hired me from my interactions with them on the other side of deals. That speaks volumes. It’s a testament to my negotiation style as an attorney. 

At this point in the conversation Marjorie and I started talking more about transferrable skills and how to sell yourself in a new industry where you might doubt that you have the type of experience the employer is looking for.

MW: I think sometimes, when you come from external industries, you may come with a bit of self-doubt, in terms of starting over. A lot of people’s paths to law school are very linear, and you go from undergrad and go right into law school. But I also think there is a lot to having life experience and bringing those experiences to the table, I think it’s only additive as an amplifier in your educational experience because you really have context for some of the things you learn. 

DD: You just mentioned self-doubt. Is imposter syndrome something you’ve dealt with and worried that you weren’t qualified to take on these new projects? Or do you think you always went into big career milestones with confidence? 

MW: My career path has certainly been the opposite of linear and very non-traditional. I’m not afraid to learn something new. And so, I think a lot of what my confidence can be attributed to, is, again, really all of the things that I did in the military. When you’re, you know, in your 20s, and let’s be clear, at a time, where there’s a lot of conflict you learn pretty quickly, how to find your voice, and do it effectively. At this point, I can’t tell you the last time I really felt like, this is something that is going to be insurmountable. And let’s be honest, I’m a very spiritual person. So for me also, I’m very clear that I’m always going to be taken care of even though there are times where maybe the job isn’t what I thought it was going to be, or certainly life isn’t without challenge. That’s absolutely the case in my situation. I lost my parents when I was a teenager. I was raised by my cousin who was very young at the time, but she instilled a sense of just foundational understanding of “you can be successful”. You’re adding those to your toolkit of, “If I if I can do that, I can certainly do this.” If I can help with hostage rescues, if I can help our pilots decide where they’re going to target and get back safely and we will figure this all out. We’ll put our heads together.

DD: Looking back at your time at Loyola, what would you say was the thing that you did here that best helped prepare you for the working world?

MW: I think it was really getting practical experience. I did clinics. I did externships. I did  small firm reception and got a job working for a person who worked in music. It was those practical experiences because there were areas that I was exposed to from working while I was in law school that I didn’t know existed. And again, building upon those experiences is what led me to an awareness of what actually is even out there.

DD: My last question for you is do you have any advice for incoming law students that are hoping to work in entertainment law after graduation?

MW: Buckle up! The biggest thing is just understanding that there’s no linear path. I have friends who have practiced in private practice before coming to entertainment. One of my boss’s bosses, who is effectively the COO at Amazon Studios, was a public defender or DA at one point. I think, if you want to do this, just stay at it because you’re gonna hear a lot of no’s. And in some cases you’re gonna have to take one step back, or even two steps back. When I started out I was temping. That’s how I got my job. I came out when we were the first class that was impacted by the recession. It was disastrous for my class.  Law firms were closing. They were rescinding offers. They were paying people not to come into work. For me, I thought, “Oh, the other area that I would have gone into was government.” Whether that was city attorney, homeland security, white-collar anti-terrorism, something like that. But government wasn’t hiring.  A friend connected me with another friend that I met at a birthday party who happened to own a temping agency and they were like, “you can at least temp while you’re waiting on bar results.” I thought that was a way to get some sort of experience. In temping you think this is not going to be permanent. It’s just a temporary thing. But I sought out opportunities to continue to get experience. That’s the advice that I can tell whomever, no matter what you’re doing, to seek out opportunities to get some sort of experience. In those experiences you also never know who you’re gonna meet. And the entertainment industry is very much about, not only who you know, but who knows you. I don’t know that I’ve cold-applied for anything. From temping for this family that I met at a birthday party through a military friend to the various routes I’ve had, it’s all been through something who’s reached out to me or referred a recruiter to me. To students, I can’t underscore that no matter where you are, show up. No matter where you are try and get the best that you can out of whatever you’re doing. And just be pleasant. It goes such a long way in just coming to work with an attitude to “how can I help.” People notice that and remember that. 

Tin’s trajectory from an undergraduate student who took the LSAT for fun to a first-generation attorney at a global law firm is nothing short of inspiring. While law school was not always his intended career path, once he decided to embark on his legal journey, he had no doubt that LLS was the perfect place for him. My conversation with Tin was a powerful reminder of the importance of taking ownership of your career and advocating for your abilities, no matter how “junior” you are. Tin is a testament to the diversity, tenacity, and commitment of the LLS network and I am grateful to call him a mentor and a future colleague.

Mariana: What was your trajectory into the law and how did you end up choosing LLS?

Tin: Law school is not something that I always knew I wanted to do. I’m not one of those people who went to undergrad being interested in the law and knowing they wanted to go to law school. I took the LSAT before I was even interested in law school. My older sister was always interested in law school and she decided to study for the LSAT, so we thought it would be a good idea if we studied for it at the same time. I really enjoyed the LSAT and funny enough, I ended up wanting to go to law school and she never even opened her test score. After that I started working at a superior courthouse in downtown San Diego and I loved it. That job was so fun. Being in chambers and seeing judges and court proceedings as an undergrad really solidified my interest in the law. After that, Loyola was an easy decision because I wanted to be in southern California. I went to Preview Day for admitted students not knowing what law students are like and if the environment is supposed to be hostile or competitive, but it was not the case at Loyola. From the first Loyola person I met, I had a really positive experience. People were genuinely happy to be there and were happily volunteering their time on a Sunday to be at school, and that’s something you wouldn’t expect from a law school and something that I felt wasn’t the case at other law schools. So Loyola was an easy pick based on the location and because it was very clear that people wanted to be there.

Mariana: What were some classes, either during 1L, 2L, or 3L, that you found particularly meaningful or useful in your career?

Tin: Intro to negotiations. We showed up every class just to negotiate, so that was way more useful to me than a standard lecture class. It was practical because all you did was more experience negotiating with other future lawyers. That was 100% transferrable to my practice. Another great class was exploring the role of in-house counsel. That class introduces you to a lot of in-house counsel. You learn practical skills like sitting in on board meetings and how general counsel are selected, which is not something you think about a lot. But it is so applicable because most of us will end up being firm attorneys right out of law school, so we don’t know what it will be like to get in-house experience until we have the opportunity to do so.

Mariana: What was your favorite part about Loyola throughout your time there?

Tin: It’s very hard because there’s so many great things to say. But if I had to pick only one, and it’s hard to put in a box, I think the best thing about Loyola is that people genuinely care for each other. People, students, and alumni generally care about you succeeding. For example, during my 1L summer, it was the beginning of the pandemic, and everyone was kind of scrambling to find summer jobs. I reached out to my 1L-assigned Loyola mentor, and he reached out to a friend who was also a fellow LLS alum who was looking to hire. All my mentor had to say was “this is a 1L student, he’s my mentee.” He didn’t even say anything else and I got hired right away.

Mariana: What is one thing you wish you would’ve discovered earlier at Loyola, or a Loyola “life hack”? Mine is silly and simple, but I didn’t realize that if you go to Sonia’s you can just get water and ice from the vending machine so you don’t always have to go to the water fountains and they let you do it for free and you can always have ice water!

Tin: That’s a great hack, and maybe even more practical than the one I have to give. But mine, which I discovered as a 3L, is that you’d be surprised how willing professors are to go to lunch or dinner or grab a coffee with you. You always think that the best way to interact with your professors is during office hours. But they are much more willing to create a more personal relationship with their students than you’d think.

Mariana: You spoke a little already about how you found your 1L job opportunity. Once you were going into your 2L year, there’s OCI and the whole recruiting process which is a big part of a lot of students’ experience at Loyola. What are some pillars or values of firms that you were looking for when you were going through the recruiting process?

Tin: My advice might be more general because I had no idea what I wanted to do, so my interests were very broad. But you really have to lean into the people more than your interests sometimes, unless there is something really specific you know you want to do. But in terms of values, you just have to find people you want to work with. You have to take ownership of the job hunt. You’re not begging for a job, you’re qualified and coming from a great school. So ask yourself: what do I want out of this job? Don’t just go for any job you land, because realistically you will have a lot of options, whether you do private practice or public interest. When you project your interests and take ownership in your interviews, it comes across well. For example, for me, I wanted a place where they would let juniors and new attorneys have as many opportunities as they earn. It was important to me that if you can do the work, you are given it, instead of certain work being reserved to only 3^rd or 4^th years. So that is something I took ownership of in my interviews.

Mariana: While you were going through this process, did you feel supported by Loyola, whether it be through career services or outside career services, in a way that was reflective of your choices?

Tin: The backbone of support is definitely career services, and they will help you as long as you ask. Sometimes it’s easy to get lost and not even know what to ask, so relying on CDO to hand-pick jobs for you is not realistic given the number of students. But if you encounter a problem or have something specific in mind that you’re searching for and you give them that specific information to work with, that is way more productive than: “I’m looking for a summer job I don’t know where to start.” And beyond CDO, the support also comes from alumni. If you find a firm you like and then find one Loyola alum at that firm, you’d be so surprised how willing they are to prep you for that interview or application. Going out of the way to find even just one person sets you up for success because there’s no better way to learn about an employer than someone who’s working there. And Loyola alum won’t sugarcoat it or not be transparent with you, so that’s how I felt supported.

Mariana: Right now you are an associate at Gibson in the Corporate Transactional group. How did you pick this group, or was it more like the group chose you? And what was your experience like finding your place in that group?

Tin: My answer will be a little funky if you compare me to other alumni because Gibson is famous for its free market system where for the first 2 years at the firm you are unassigned. You’re not in a specific group and I get to rotate in between all the groups if I wanted to. So right now I am rotating through the Corporate group, but I am not formally assigned there yet. It’s a completely optional program, but that being said I did choose to go into corporate first. I think law school is so geared towards litigation, so I knew that if I ever wanted to be a corporate attorney I wanted to start my career by getting that exposure. I didn’t want to have a late start since I would already be a little behind the learning curve compared to people who always knew they wanted to be a transactional attorney. So timing-wise it made the most sense, but I also knew that I didn’t like the traditional motion-writing and research work that comes with litigation. But the pleasant surprise there is that there are so many opportunities to do litigation that is not just legal research and writing, which is something I didn’t know heading out of law school. So if you’re a little on the border like I was, maybe talk to people who practice litigation in a less traditional sense. For example, people who do internal investigations or government investigations or white collar defense. You’d be surprised that they don’t just do research and motions, they do a lot of fact-finding, presentations, the fun parts in my opinion of litigation. That’s why I chose corporate first, but at the same time I am not exclusively doing corporate work.

Mariana: I also want to touch on your experience as a first-generation person of color at a large law firm. We are going into spaces where traditionally we don’t see people like us, so sometimes it may feel like the learning curve going into these particular types of firms or into the legal profession at large is very steep. What did you feel was the steepest learning curve you’ve faced so far?

Tin: As a person of color, minority, woman, or first-generation attorney or law student, it comes down to comfort and confidence. At the end of the day, sometimes you will feel like you don’t belong. And that isn’t always a product of anything, it is just a feeling that is hard to shake off if you’re not comfortable. But that comfort and confidence is what good employers and firms will do a good job at in helping you grow. The first step is that some people are better than others at recognizing that it is a disadvantage or an obstacle. I think employers who brush it off as not a problem in the workplace or the legal industry say a lot about how cognizant they are about the people who want to join their firm. Firms who recognize this, for example those that have a first-gen affinity group, say a lot about their commitment to diversity. It’s easier to feel comfortable when you know other people are in the same boat as you. During the recruiting process, it’s a completely valid question to ask about.

The important thing is the comfort part. You have to be cognizant that it’s more internal pressure, there will be no one telling you that you shouldn’t feel comfortable. It’s often really self-imposed and it’s hard to get over the feeling at first. But the more you practice the more you get over it and learn how to be more confident.

Mariana: Next I wanted to talk a bit about financial literacy. We know what the salaries are like at these big firms, the numbers are everywhere. Young attorneys can potentially be making significant amounts of money, and sometimes as a first-gen you may the first person in your family who makes this kind of salary. You maybe now are trying to navigate the complexities of having the kind of money neither you nor your parents had growing up. How do you work on financial literacy and wellness?

Tin: You won’t really know until you ask, and there are so many opportunities and resources that will be available to you once you feel comfortable asking for them. It might be a new problem for you, but your coworkers already went through it even if it was a new experience for them as well at first. Asking older associates what they did in terms of retirement, 401K, benefits, insurance, what financial planning or new homeowner services they recommend. It’s not about asking the most intimate details of their financial lives, but simple questions like: What’s a 401K and what do I do with it? How do I pay off my student loans? People are so happy to help you, we’re in the same career and a lot of people had this first experience as well. So don’t try to figure it out by yourself. Asking questions as they come up will come a long way. And not just your coworkers, but other alum from your school. And ask about credit cards! Attorneys love talking about credit cards and points.

Mariana: Lastly, as a junior attorney I imagine you are trying to balance doing good work and establishing yourself at your firm, so work-life balance might look a little different for you now than it might for a more senior associate, but what does that balance look like for you? Do you struggle with balancing being present at the firm and also just learning how to be a new attorney?

Tin: It all comes down to good will. As a new attorney you don’t have any good will so people don’t know what your work quality or ethic is like. People don’t know if you’re willing to work nights, weekends, or holidays. So the earlier you can showcase that you produce high work quality and are a team player and that you are willing to contribute to the team when it’s not convenient for you, the more people will reward you for it. People are willing to be more courteous once you show them your good will. So in terms of work-life balance and establishing that reputation early on, the more you say yes and establish a good name for yourself early on, the easier it is to set boundaries and have a better work-life balance.